The above video was made by Seventh-day Adventists for Seventh-day Adventists — or, as I prefer to call them, Sadventists, because it’s much more accurate. The video is funny because it’s true. It’s also disturbing because it’s true. I’ve never been quite sure what Sadventists fear more — the wrath of god, or being caught by other Sadventists while doing un-Sadventisty things.
All of Christianity is judgmental. There are few things more annoying than being told by a Christian, “Judge not lest ye be judged,” because Christians spend most of their time passing judgment on other people. It’s what they do. Sadventism is no exception. During my time among the Sadventists, I used to think they had refined judgment to an unbelievable degree. They judge no one as harshly as they judge each other. I’ve often said that while putting up a pleasant front for outsiders, Sadventists regularly eat their own, like spiders and sharks. The vignettes in the video “Adventist Alert” might seem exaggerated to non-Sadventists. I assure you, they are tame compared to the real thing.
I’ve known people in many other Christian denominations — very religious people, stern and rigid — who look at Sadventists, shake their heads and say, “Wow. Those people are really extreme.” That’s because little things that might appear perfectly innocent to non-Sadventists — even to religious non-Sadventists — are, in the Sadventist cult, crimes that must be hidden from other Sadventists. Getting caught doing things like eating meat, if you’re a vegetarian Sadventist, for example, would be unacceptable. Or, if you’re a second-class Sadventist and you do eat meat (the vegetarians are upper-class, don’tcha know), you certainly don’t want to get caught eating unclean meat like pork or seafood. And drinking wine or liquor? Fuggeddaboutit. Depending on the level of severity of the particular Sadventist church you attend (some are more liberal than others, although the range is rather narrow), you don’t want to get caught dancing, or going to a movie theater or an establishment known for serving liquor (even if you’re not drinking any liquor), or drinking coffee or caffeinated cola, or engaging in any unacceptable activities on the Sabbath (sundown Friday to sundown Saturday).
Sadventists are a very insular lot. Along with the churches, they have their own schools — they claim to have “one of the largest church-supported educational systems in the world” — and they have their own hospitals throughout the U.S. Sadventists tend to hang out with Sadventists, attend camp meetings and church retreats, go to Sadventist doctors and dentists and patronize Sadventist businesses whenever possible. It’s a tight-knit group and everyone knows everyone. And they’re always watching. Should you get caught by other Sadventists in the act of breaking one of the many, many Sadventist rules, there are consequences. For one thing, word on the Sadventist grapevine (which, by the way, is made up of grapes intended to be used only for grape juice and never for wine) spreads faster than an STD at a crackwhore gangbang. After that, references to the behavior in question are dropped into conversations by your friends and acquaintances in the church. These references are disguised as concern, subtly mentioned to let you know that they know. If the offense is severe enough, you’ll get more than mere references — you’ll get questions.
“Is it true that you had a glass of wine while you were out to dinner last Tuesday?” someone might ask. Or you might get a helpful suggestion like this: “Instead of going through the McDonald’s drive-through after church on the sabbath, maybe you should stay for the pot luck lunch to avoid the temptation.” Sadventists, you see, are not supposed to do any business on the sabbath — no buying, no selling — and they aren’t supposed to do anything that would cause anyone else, even a non-Sadventist, to do business on the sabbath.
You will get stern looks from some, looks of sad concern from others — because you are now a Badventist. But more importantly, they know you’re a Badventist, and they’ve got something on you, which is a favorite pastime in Sadventism. If you are caught engaging in the unapproved behavior more than once, someone — perhaps your pastor — might have a stern talk with you. Some people might even stop talking to you. This is how people are punished in Sadventism. And people are punished a lot in Sadventism.
You might find all this fuss over such trivial things rather silly. But there’s a reason for it. Sadventism is built on following rules — it would probably be more accurate to call them laws. That is how you get to heaven. Most mainstream Christian denominations believe that you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, not by anything you do. They believe that his death on the cross was the sacrifice needed to deliver you from sin, and if you accept that, you are saved. Not Sadventists. Nosiree Bob!
The Seventh-day Adventist cult’s “prophet” and founder, the alcoholic, masturbation-obsessed habitual plagiarist Ellen G. White, was astonishingly fanatical and legalistic, and let’s face it, folks, crazier than a bag of wet cats. At the age of nine, Ellen was hit in the head with a rock, which resulted in her being comatose for three weeks. Many think this trauma damaged her brain in ways that could have caused her extreme zealotry — I prefer to call it religious lunacy — which involved what she claimed were visions shown her by god, visitations by angels, and even a trip to Jupiter. Others think she was a calculating, greedy, power-hungry fraud. Some think she was a combination of both. Then there are the Sadventists, who believe even today in 2011 — despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary, all of which is poorly explained away by the cult, although the explanations are good enough for the believers — that she was a true prophet of god whose writings were divinely inspired and remain an infallible supplement to the word of god. The cult holds Ellen in the same regard as the biblical prophets (something else they deny vehemently to outsiders but acknowledge within the invisible walls that surround the cult). Over the years, there have been endless revisions and changes made in Ellen’s writings by the Sadventist Powers That Be to cover up some of her more embarrassing statements or obvious errors, which seems odd if her infallible writings are divinely inspired. Nevertheless, nearly a century after her death, Ellen’s writings are still the arbiter of doctrine and scriptural interpretation in the cult.
Ellen passed down a litany of rules that would read to the average person like the ramblings of a maniac. She originally prohibited consulting physicians or using drugs of any kind, although she later reversed that when it turned out that she needed medical help. She forbade the eating of butter, eggs, cheese, pickles, mustard, pepper, cinnamon and other spices and any desserts, the drinking of coffee, tea and, of course, alcohol, and the use of baking soda and vinegar (although she later admitted she was addicted to drinking vinegar, which at that time was heavily alcoholic). These prohibitions were not simply for health reasons — they were moral edicts! She claimed they excited the “animal passions” of fragile human beings and led to masturbation, which she believed to be the greatest evil facing humankind, and they even interfered with one’s relationship with god and could destroy one’s chances of salvation. Here’s an example:
“You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?”
– Testimonies, Vol. 2, p. 362, 1870
So, if you eat butter, eggs and meat, your prayers won’t reach god. Betcha didn’t know that!
Ellen also condemned card games, chess, checkers, football, tennis, cricket, baseball and bike racing. Also banned were picnics, social parties, the reading of fiction and attending the theater, secular concerts, billiard halls, bowling alleys, dance halls (and dancing itself) and the circus. She instructed women to wear pants under their skirts (when I attended Sadventist school in the 1970s, many girls were made by their parents to wear pants under their dresses to avoid exposing their legs) and condemned the wearing of jewelry (to this day, it is still common for Sadventist men to give an engagement watch rather than an engagement ring, and some Sadventists — but far from all — have only recently begun wearing wedding rings). She told Sadventists that they were breaking the fourth commandment if they washed dishes, shaved, or engaged in any games, swimming or “pleasure seeking” on the sabbath. She told them never to buy life insurance, join unions, pray standing up, live in the city, and not to send their children to school before the age of eight.
I apologize if I’m boring you with all this Sadventist minutia, but it’s necessary in order for you to understand Sadventism’s rigid legalism. Just about any Sadventist will tell you that today, the cult has loosened up a lot and isn’t nearly as stern and legalistic as it used to be. “We’re not the legalistic church we used to be,” they’ll say. “We’ve become much more liberal and modern.” This may be true on the surface. But you don’t have to scratch that surface very hard to find that it hasn’t changed much over the decades, and in some areas, you’ll find Sadventists who are still as rigid, legalistic and batshit-crazy as Ellen herself. It seems the thing they are the most liberal about is their definition of the words “liberal” and “modern.”
Keep in mind that, to Sadventists, Ellen G. White is a messenger of god and her writings are infallible. Rules from Ellen are rules from god. Breaking those rules is a sin. Sadventists aren’t allowed to sin because Ellen told them they have to be perfect in order to go to heaven. Most of Christianity teaches that perfection is achieved only in heaven, but in Sadventism, perfection is required to get to heaven. Once again, this will be denied by Sadventists, and it’s not taught directly — no one says from the pulpit, “You must be perfect!” In fact, you might hear Sadventist pastors contradict the Sadventist pope Ellen White by actually claiming that we humans cannot be perfect. But the idea that perfection is necessary for salvation, while not identified in those words, permeates the cult’s teachings the way fat marbles a rib eye steak (oh, no — a meat reference!). When you add it all up, the result is REQUIRED PERFECTION. And Ellen makes that quite clear in her writing. Here are a few examples:
“As the Son of man was perfect in His life, so His followers are to be PERFECT in their life.” — The Faith I Live By, p. 44
“Not even by a thought did He [Jesus Christ] yield to temptation. So it may be with us.” — Desire of Ages, p. 123
“In order to let Jesus into our hearts, we must stop sinning.” — Signs of the Times, March 3, 1898
“To be redeemed means to cease from sin.” — Review & Herald, September 25, 1900
“Human beings may in this life attain to perfection of character.” — Acts of the Apostles, p. 531
“Perfection of character is attainable by every one who strives for it.” — Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 212
So, before Jesus will accept you, before you can be saved, YOU MUST BE PERFECT! Imagine what it’s like to believe that firmly, with all your heart. And imagine having so many ridiculous, nonsensical rules to follow. It’s a tense life, let me tell you. Sadventists love to tell people how happy they are, but from my experience, they are more likely to be bundles of guilty anxieties and religion-induced neuroses. You might wonder why they would choose to live this way, why they would subject themselves to this. Sadly, most of them don’t know they have a choice. Most Sadventists are born into the cult and then pass that belief system on to their own children, all the while living within the cult’s insular community where all their beliefs are reinforced and all of those ridiculous rules are believed to be of utmost importance. They don’t know anything else.
The following of these rules is so important, and the cult is so insular and close-knit, that deviating from the rules in any way becomes a game of cat and mouse. If you’re going to break a rule, you’d better not get caught doing it by other Sadventists. The rules are so important that they will notice, and it will become an issue. The unexpressed attitude seems to be, If I have to follow all these rules, then so do you, and I’m not going to let you get away with breaking them!
Back to that video. Yes, it’s funny. But I find it disturbing because, as I mentioned earlier, it was made by Sadventists for Sadventists and was shown recently at the 2011 Florida Hospital Church Retreat. It reveals that they are aware of their cult’s rigid legalism and harshly judgmental nature. They are aware of their own pettiness and mean-spiritedness. But rather than address the problem, rather than trying to find a solution to the problem, they’re comfortable enough with it to joke about it. “Look at us! We’re judgmental and petty and mean-spirited! Isn’t that funny?” This reveals a level of arrogant pomposity in the Seventh-day Adventist cult that astonishes even me — and I thought I’d gotten to the point where it would be impossible to astonish me with any negative revelations about Sadventism.
Ellen White would have disapproved of this video strongly — not because it casts Sadventists in a bad light, but because it’s funny. Ellen was not a fan of laughter.
“You sport and joke and enter into hilarity and glee. Does the Word of God sustain you in this? It does not. Christ is our example. Do you imitate the great Exemplar? Christ often wept but never was known to laugh. I do not say it is a sin to laugh on any occasion. But we cannot go astray if we imitate the divine, unerring Pattern. We are living in a sad age of this world’s history.” — Manuscript Releases Vol. 6, pp. 90-91
That was my life for a long time. My heart goes out to those still living it — even though they’re in it so deeply that they can’t understand why someone would pity them and probably would be offended by it. Believe me, if there were an app such as the “Adventist Alert,” every Sadventist would have one … but they wouldn’t want any of the other Sadventists to know they needed it.

There are people who actually buy into this shit???????
CriticalEyes — The overwhelming majority of Sadventists are born into the cult. Most Sadventist families have been in the cult for generations. They have a lot of outreach programs, most of which use cult tactics. Their “Revelation Seminars” warn people of the nearness of The End, but they don’t identify themselves as Sadventist, even if you ask. Once you express some interest, they feed you more information and they don’t identify who they are until later. It has the same onion-layer structure that all religious. These tactics succeed in pulling some people in. I’ve talked to people whose spouses have been pulled into the cult that way. I corresponded with a man whose wife had become a Sadventist and he expressed great concern because she’d changed so much. He had no interest whatsoever in it and refused to go with her to meetings or church, and when she told this to her Sadventist friends, they did what all cults do. They told her husband would be a problem if he didn’t convert. The relationship chilled. I haven’t heard from him in a while, so I don’t know what happened, but this is pretty typical. Once you become a Sadventist, everyone in your life who isn’t a Sadventist is a potential enemy. When the “time of trouble” comes and the government passes the “national Sunday law” that Ellen White prophesied, requiring EVERYONE to worship on Sunday, these non-Sadventists in your life will likely turn you in to the authorities.
I guess this is my long-winded way of saying yes, people DO buy into it. They’re SCARED into it because the cult relies very heavily on fear and paranoia, and they tie their nonsense to current events in the news to prove that The End is near. But not as many buy into it as the Sadventist cult would have you believe. They are losing members fast and they can’t recruit nearly enough new ones to make up for it. The internet has had a huge impact on the cult because it has made the truth about Ellen White readily available to people whose questions have not been satisfactorily answered by the cult.
SDA family member here. The church I go to is very liberal compared to others. Yes there i a potluck after church, many members socialize then. We argue about the Cardinals and cubs, the church is in Illinois and I live in St. Louis. My kids went to SDA camp over the summer, yes it was all veggies, but nearly all of them ate meat. And ln the last night of teen camp, they had a dance. Not saying that others aren’t still strict and look down on you, but yes they are more liberal. Oh and my aunt and uncle have wedding rings
As I pointed out in the article, this is a very common response. When I say this about Sadventism, it seems that every Sadventist within earshot responds by saying their church is a very liberal one, and they’re cool and modern and they do all kinds of worldly things and they’re not like those stuffy conservative Sadventists. That, of course, leads to a question: Why are you a Seventh-day Adventist? If you have no interest in following its rules, then why participate at all? You were probably raised a Sadventist, weren’t you, Dawn? The Sadventist subculture is so insular and does such a thorough job of consuming the lives of the members that they often find it hard to break away, even if they don’t agree with the church. Because outside of that subculture is a world that’s very unfamiliar and intimidating, and they often find it difficult to function there. So instead, they stay with what they know, even if they don’t believe in it, or even like it.
I find it hard to believe that there was a dance at a Sadventist camp. Could you be more specific, please, Dawn? What’s the name of the camp and exactly what kind of dance was it? A square dance, perhaps? Is the camp officially affiliated with the church — by that, I mean the Seventh-day Adventist Conference — or is it simply run by people who are members? Forgive my skepticism, but I’ve heard this sort of thing many times before, and it almost never holds up to any scrutiny.
Well then, as Several critical thinkers have stated………. Belief IS a Mental Illness!!!!!
I’ve heard of this group and it is interesting to know how they originated. After reading a bit about Ellen from your links I’m not so sure that her so called prophecy dreams were entirely a result of her head injury. I think they were a result of her total absorption into her religious beliefs.
For instance: I was working on a watercolor painting and having trouble because of my inexperience with that particular medium. I bought a few books on the subject and totally absorbed myself in them over several days. One morning I awoke after dreaming about creating a painting using several techniques demonstrated in the books. I immediately began to paint the same tree as I did in my dream using several layers of wash to create realistic depth…And it turned out pretty good, one of my sisters still has it hanging on her wall.
Now I knew the great paint gods were not speaking to me, nor was I channeling some great watercolor painter’s spirit. But I was impressed with the knowledge I acquired through a dream. So I bought a book about dreams, and not the foolish “Dreams are Signs” type. It was written by a professor of some university about dream studies and had a scientific, analytical, logical answer.
Many dreams are the brains way of sorting out problems while one sleeps, others are the brains diagnosis of the body’s health, and others are not fully understood but most come under the two categories. The book actually had a formula to analyze the dream and how to recognize transitions into the next dream. For about two weeks I diligently wrote my dreams down when I remembered them and used the formula on them, and was surprised that many times I was solving problems when dreaming as I did with the painting.
Please do not ask for the name of the book or its author as it was a long time ago, and I briefly used it before lending it to a friend who has never returned it…A female friend I’m no longer in contact with. But I would like to acquirer another copy of it and have thought of it many times over the years.
Anywho, I think Ellen was so absorbed with religion she dreampt about solving the many problems her belief brought to her. I felt sorry for her after reading about her injury and all the problems it brought her.
On another note, for those of you following politics and religion, especially regarding the budget and the cuts they wish to make…here is a good link:
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/04/05/liberty_university_federal_money/index.html
Quote:
(Liberty University, the evangelical private Christian school founded by dead apartheid-supporting bigot Jerry Falwell, received $445 million in federal financial aid last year. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting, by the way, received $420 million from the federal government.)
That’s an interesting theory, Mark. But Ellen wasn’t as immersed in her religion as she would’ve had people believe. While she was telling people not to eat meat, and especially to avoid meats identified in the bible as “unclean,” like pork and seafood, she was regularly scarfing down her two favorite meats — fried chicken and oysters. While she was telling people they shouldn’t even use vinegar on their salads, she was DRINKING it and getting snockered. Like many others, I’m inclined to think she was a very calculating fraud who wanted power and money. Her wife Ja — er, um, I mean her husband James (who ALSO wore pants in the family, apparently) was an active partner in this. He was responsible for altering a lot of her writings when it turned out her prophecies and predictions didn’t come true, or when she wrote something that was provably wrong. When she changed her teachings — based, of course, on whatever god conveniently told her — her past writings were altered accordingly and her past teachings were purged or rewritten in order to avoid any conflict. This was quite a little operation. And she was not alone — prophets and seers like her were a penny a gross in those days. She repeatedly condemned the “spiritualism movement” that was so big at that time, which is ironic because it was from that very movement that she emerged. It was that very movement that gave her the opportunity to have the career she had.
Ray, thank you for this very accurate portrayal of the cult in which we both grew up. You do a service, here, because many Americans would have trouble believing that a sort of Christian madrasa exists right here in the U.S. of A. I’m betting some of the other strict fundamentalist religions have similar indoctrination methods and reliance on rules, but I’m familiar only with Sadventism and you’ve given your blog readers insight into the cult phenomenon and how it can hide behind a veneer of respectability. Sadventists like to portray themselves as a mainstream protestant church, even as they hide themselves during their efforts to recruit. In revealing more about this strange cult, you may help readers who are approached or who have to deal with someone close being sucked in. Bravo. I didn’t know what true happiness was until I, with great difficulty, gave up that nonsense, step by slow step. If anyone who reads your blog is in the grip of Sadventism, please know that you can get out and that, on the other side, a much greater happiness can be found.
Wonderful insight into Sadventists. I have difficulty in understanding the difference between a cult and a religion. Since both require a belief in some invisible supernatural being it seems as though the only difference is 1) how old the particular bullshit is and 2)how many believe it.
Thanks for the reply Ray. I was not in anyway trying to justify her actions as an adult, just offering a theory to her dream prophecies. I would add that I wondered… if she had a modern day understanding of what dreams are would she have pursued her roll as a religious prophet?
From you reply I’m guessing that it would not have mattered, as she apparently was just another religious hypocrite pursuing the other profit, and making it up as she goes along like many religious leaders do.
I didn’t think you were trying to justify anything, Mark. I think it’s a great theory, and one I’d not heard before. Dreams have always fascinated me, and I would LOVE to find that book! If you ever happen to remember the title or the author, please find me and let me know.
Steven — Thanks for the post. Just today, I encountered a woman who was very interested in Sadventism. She’d heard they lived longer than everyone else and stuck to a very healthy diet, and even better, that they provided a great social support network for their members. I briefly told her about my experience with the cult and suggested she read this article. I hope she does. They have been enormously successful at creating a public image for themselves that is extremely deceptive and that has absolutely nothing to do with what they really are.
Karen — There are technical differences between a cult and a religion, but in the end, it’s all the same crap.
A cult is something that has a specific person at the top. It is influenced by that person’s writings or teachings, which this person claims to have received from some mysterious source, usually god, or angels. The person at the top cannot be questioned. Usually this person is alive and active within the cult, but as you can see with Sadventism — or Scientology, for that matter — that’s not always the case. Cults have particular methods they use to recruit members. They have outreach programs that are not associated with their cult, and they don’t identify themselves until they’ve pulled the potential recruit far enough into their mythology, which is usually based on fear. They tend to separate recruits from family members. They have overwhelming rules their members must follow, and these rules usually involve very personal aspect of a person’s life, like diet, dress, sexual behavior, etc. These rules are so invasive that they usually become a part of the member’s identity. Members are usually required to give money, and this requirement involves the difference between some kind of salvation and some kind of damnation (Sadventists are required to give 10% of ALL their earnings to the church, and this is a salvational issue, not just a suggestion). Cults use ostracization and other social punishments to keep members in line. There are a number of other traits of religious cults. There’s an anti-cult group that has compiled a list and if the group you’re in gets a “yes” on a certain majority of those traits, it’s a cult and you should get the hell out. Most cults don’t get a “yes” on every single trait, but that’s not necessary.
Of course, all of these things can be seen in the major religions — Christianity, Judaism, Islam. But these religions have been successful, they’ve become enormous, and they have become accepted. They point to their ancient holy books as proof that they are legitimate and they say that any smaller groups that contradict those holy books are cults. But those holy books are nothing more than people at the top who claim to have received messages from god. They all have rules that must be followed — rules that often control diet, dress, sexuality, behavior. In the end, it’s six of one, half a dozen of the other. Potato, potahto, tomato, tomahto. Identifying smaller groups as “cults” is a very effective way for the established religions to put a stop to the competition before it gets big enough to become a problem.
But today, these smaller “cults” can often be very dangerous. All religion is harmful, but some of these cults present an immediate danger to their members, and even to people on the outside. The Branch Davidians is a good example. They were molesting children, for one thing. The Strong City cult is another — a group led by a man who claims to be some kind of new Christ and who used that title to fuck everybody’s wives and daughters, including his own son’s wife, and including a lot of underage little girls. Guess where both of these cults came from. They were offshoots of the Seventh-day Adventist cult. The leader of the Strong City cult, Wayne Bent aka Michael Travesser, used to be a Sadventist pastor. Sadventism is a cult that creates other cults. It’s a petri dish of cults. First of all, if you’ll believe a virgin can get pregnant and give birth to a baby who’s later executed and then rose from the grave, you’ll pretty much believe anything. So maybe you’ll believe a fanatical Victorian-era woman was receiving visions from god that told her masturbation could kill you and that black people were the result of humans having sex with animals long ago (that’s something Ellen White actually wrote, by the way, something god showed her). And if you’ll believe THAT, well, hey, guess what! I’m the new Christ and I need to have sex with your wife! And the beat goes on. …
Cults are often run by people who are crazy, and dangerously so. Remember Heaven’s Gate? “Gentlemen, you all need to cut off your testicles so we can go live on the Starship Enterprise behind a comet.” And Charlie Manson! “Do somethin’ witchy.” And Jim Jones was another one. “Juice for everybody! It’s on me!” The list is long. All religion is a problem, but cults are often the brainchildren of crazy people with malignant goals. They are an immediate threat within the greater, more generalized threat of mainstream religion.
I was born into Adventism and went completely through the school system. My family even spent 5 years in Southeast Asia building schools and hospitals. During that time I was home schooled through the churches Home Study Institute. Much of the Bible Classes was based on E.G. White. Generally her interpretations of the Gospels and Old Testament are reasonably close to the Biblical record. Later I began to read “The Testamonies to the Church”. That is where I lost all interest in anything she had to say. I finally left the Church completely when the GC made belief in her writings an article of faith to become baptized.
I have, in the 40+ years since then come to the point where I have serious doubt in terms of the Bible and whether it is in fact “The Word of God”, or whether it is ,like many other worthwhile scriptural writings, representations of religious lore and biographical works that illuminate the writings of scholars who had something to contribute. As a non-sectarian Christian, I believe that Jesus was the Son of God. I believe that there may be a hereafter. I cannot agree that the compilation of scriptural works compiled by the way, by men who argued amongst themselves, and still argue today that there are works that are in the Bible, but should not be, and works excluded that should have been included. Further, I look at the organization, the men in it, and the obvious lack of any form of sanctity of some of them and their leaders, and cannot agree that the Anthology is “The Word of God” and as such infallible. It, like a great number of books, tracts, and essays a worthwhile spiritual guide. It contains some of the most complete historical record of several historical eras. The account of Creation should be understood to be a compilation orf oral history and as such is no more sanctified than a Navaho Creation Myth, or one from an Anamist tribe in Amazonia.
In Terms of Sadventists, I really find it difficult to credit them with any intellectual honesty when they reject outright the geological history of the earth. They seem to feel that they can pick and choose what parts of things they can agree to believe, but then turn around and reject the possibility that something else just cannot be, because it violates the very primitive efforts to outline any timeline of earth’s history.
A cult is what the larger congregation calls the smaller congregation. I heard tell that back in Pleasanton (there was a substantial Mormon population), ‘wayward’ teenagers in Mormon families were constantly in trouble & on occasion threatened w/expulsion. It was a rumor, but quite believable. Indeed, ostracism seems to be a recurrent theme.
Why do atheists care about what Sadventists do? Are there hypocrites in the SDA Chruch? of course there are, there are hypocrites in all churches. Does that mean that there are no genuine believers? I think we can safely assume there are some people who are the real deal and not just pretending to be so while they know someone is watching them. Similarity to the world is one of the reasons why churches have lost the power to change lives, they are to busy being worldly to be apart and separate from the practices of the world.
Meat eating is not a test of SDA Chruch membership, neither is drinking coke and tea, alcohol is a different story. Alcohol is to be avoided like the plague by Adventists, after all, look at the immense cost it imposes on socieity. Untold grief and pain are caused by the use of alcohol. The effects of which are far worse than the negative effects of all cults put together.
Paul wrote: “Why do atheists care about what Sadventists do?”
Why do you care about what atheists care about, Paul? Atheists don’t believe in god, but we care very much about religion because it does so much harm in the world The Seventh-day Adventist cult is a religion, and it does an ENORMOUS amount of damage to people and families. So we care. You think because we don’t believe the things you do that we can’t care about the tremendous damage your cult does to people?
“Are there hypocrites in the SDA Chruch?”
As in all religions and sects, there are nothing BUT hypocrites in the Sadventist cult. No one can live up to the insane standards Christianity in general and Sadventism in particular set for their victims. NO ONE. Ellen White told her followers they had to be PERFECT. Nobody can do that. Therefore, everyone in that religion and that cult is a hypocrite.
“Does that mean that there are no genuine believers?”
Oh, there are PLENTY of genuine believers, and the genuine believers are the WORST! The genuine believers are the ones who tried to KILL me in the cult’s little college town of Angwin, California, when my first horror novel was published because their drunken prophet and founder wrote that fiction was evil. The genuine believers are the most dangerous. They do the most damage. Bringing up the genuine believers does not help your case, Paul — they’re your biggest problem because what they believe is insane. And you’re avoiding the REAL problem — the cult itself, its teachings, its very existence. Didn’t you read my article? Or did you just blindly post in defense of your cult because you saw that someone had written something negative. Your CULT is the problem. The damage it does is done to the MEMBERS.
“Similarity to the world is one of the reasons why churches have lost the power to change lives,”
Wrong. They still change lives, but NEVER for the better. They’re losing power because people are figuring out they’re all full of shit.
“Meat eating is not a test of SDA Church membership”
I never said it was. Why are you trying to refute something I didn’t say? I specifically pointed out that not all Sadventists are vegetarians and I never claimed it was a test of membership. I said those who eat meat are treated like second-class members, as opposed to those who are vegetarians. And that’s true.
“neither is drinking coke and tea”
I never said they were. Why are you trying to refute something I didn’t say? In your defensive fervor, Paul, you seem to be hallucinating.
“alcohol is a different story. Alcohol is to be avoided like the plague by Adventists,”
The way your self-admitted alcoholic prophet and founder avoided it?
“look at the immense cost it imposes on socieity. Untold grief and pain are caused by the use of alcohol.”
Oh, please, cut the crap. That has NOTHING to do with it and you know it.
“The effects of which are far worse than the negative effects of all cults put together.”
HA! That’s funny. So booze is worse than your cult and all the other cults like it? The addiction to alcohol — NOT the alcohol itself — does a lot of damage, yes. But it doesn’t come close to doing the kind of damage your cult does. The kind of damage your cult does drives people to DRINK.
I’d say that was a nice try, Paul, but the truth is, it was pretty weak. Come back when you’ve got an actual argument.
I don’t recall you raising the issue of hypocrisy, Ray, but it seems to be important to Paul and I can guess why, having been a devout Sadventist in my early youth (until I entered my twenties). Hypocrisy is an accusation Sadventists fear in themselves and are quick to level at each other (projection being what it is). It should come as no surprise since their cult teaches them that they were born sick and commanded to be well. One of the heaviest of all the heavy weights Sadventism straps to the back of its cult members is the constant strain of trying to be perfect, which, diabolically, is done to avoid punishment and to win eternal life. Lost is the fundamental joy of doing good for it’s own sake, for the pleasure it gives you, with no thought of punishment or reward. Having lived both ways, I can testify that I became much happier after I gave up the burden of believing that my best attempts at “righteousness” (being good) were as “filthy rags in the sight of God,” as the iron age book puts it. For as long as you believe that, having been taught it from the time you could think, there is no possibility of feeling good about yourself. Hence, Sadventists.
I was born into a Seventh Day Adventist family and raised in an SDA school and church and I find this article appalling. And before you jump down my throat, I am an atheist too.
There are a LOT of things within the church that are wrong, and judgement IS an issue particularly among older generations, but for Christ’s sake man, you got their entire doctrine completely wrong… It’s obvious that you like to dramatise things, and if this was your true experience of the entire Seventh Day Adventist church I’m truly sorry.
I agree with many elements of your article. Yes, E.G White was batshit crazy, but NONE of the SDA’s I have known throughout my life, have ever put her writings on equal ground as the Bible. It was constantly taught in Bible classes at school and in church that the Bible is absolutely paramount. I have heard a few sermons in my life from pastors saying exactly this, because yes, it is argued by many SDA’s that some SDA’s place far too much importance on her writings.
Throughout my entire childhood I was always taught that it was notright actions that ‘saved’ you, but your faith in Jesus and a genuine desire to be like him in life. It’s not about needing to be ‘perfect’, nor does any Adventist I’ve met believe that that it is obtainable outside of heaven (other than our pal Jesus, of course). I have never met an Adventist who believes they need to be perfect to be saved, and I have heard at least a thousand sermons on precisely that message in numerous churches, camps and schools. Honestly it’s probably the most preached thing in the church.
Yes, some of them are very judgmental. Many of them gossip like old housewives, and everyone DOES know everyone else. Yes, whenever I visit the church I grew up in I get dirty looks from some members. But I also get handshakes, hugs, and beaming genuine smiles asking how I am and saying that it’s great to see me again from other members who are genuine Adventist Christians.
I have many criticisms of Seventh Day Adventism and Christianity in general, the entire religious belief system is hypocritical even at the best of times, but it’s always good to be right, and I think you spent a great deal of this article being very very wrong. Honestly atheists like you make me embarrassed to identify myself with atheism. You fight fire with fire, and it’s disgusting.
Ray,
Thanks for this post. PZ linked to you at Pharyngula–when I saw this about the SDA church I had to come check it out. I have a (former) friend who was sucked into the cult. He is currently an employee of the Amazing Facts! SDA ministry in California.
I watched my friend utterly transform within a couple years of joining the cult. It was like watching a slow-motion, self-inflicted murder. My friend systematically purged his life of nearly everything he had once enjoyed. His extensive collection of sci-fi was expurgated and replaced with a Strong’s Concordence, a bible “expansion set,” and of course the foam-flecked ravings of EG White. All manner of “worldly” possessions were given away or sold. My friend’s politics also underwent a radical change: he went from moderate centrist to hard-right social conservative. Most amusingly, my friend had once been a harsh critic of Ayn Rand… but the last time I had a conversation with him he had all but gone Galt.
Everything you wrote about: the strict vegetarianism, the obsession with “sabbath-keeping,” the endless grim legalism… Man, does that ever bring me back into the orbit of that crazy, crazy world. I once had an hour long argument with this guy over “wine.” Jesus, he assured me, had turned water into… grape juice at the wedding in Cana.
And in the end, I too had to be expurgated. It wouldn’t do to associate with an atheist, I suppose. So, yeah, I guess I’m still pretty fucking bitter about it. Anyway, thanks again for posting.
Wendy wrote: “It’s obvious that you like to dramatise things, and if this was your true experience of the entire Seventh Day Adventist church I’m truly sorry.”
I’ve been having conversations with Seventh-day Adventist about my attitude toward the cult for a long time now — not by choice, but because every time I criticize the cult, they pop up like moles in one of those Whack-A-Mole games — and this is always, ALWAYS the very first thing Sadventists say to me. In saying this, they try do two things: 1.) Call into question my honesty by suggesting I may be lying about my experience with the cult, and 2.) Let me know that they think the problem is ME and could not possibly be the cult itself or the people in it. The problem is my bitterness and nothing else. This is always my first clue that I’m dealing with someone who is going to defend the cult no matter what. In other words, it lets me know I’m dealing with a loyal Sadventist.
First of all, everything I’ve ever said about my experience with the Sadventist cult has been true. Not only do I not dramatize my experiences, I often water them down to make them more believable to those who’ve had no experience with Sadventism. When I’m dealing with non-Sadventists, I’ve found that an absolutely accurate account of my experiences is usually met with disbelief. Secondly, I am not bitter; although I was for years, I’ve gotten way past that. Bitterness and resentment are self-destructive. When I talk about the cult now, it is with humor, not bitterness. Thirdly, while my experience was bad, yes, and I’m the first to admit that, my experience does NOT discredit anything I say about the cult. Trying to say that it does is very revealing — but not of me.
“Throughout my entire childhood I was always taught that it was not right actions that ‘saved’ you, but your faith in Jesus and a genuine desire to be like him in life.”
If you read my article, then you know that I’ve already pointed this out. This is not something that is spoken out loud. It is not an official part of Sadventist doctrine. Neither is ostracization, and Sadventists usually point that out, too. “We do not ostracize! That is not a part of our policy! Nowhere in any of the church’s documents will you find anything that speaks of ostracizing people who do not follow the church’s rules!” Well, of course you won’t. It would be pretty stupid to put that in writing, wouldn’t it? I’ve said a lot of things about the cult, but I’ve never said it was run by morons. But ostracization happens all the time. Similarly, you will never find anything spoken about the need to achieve perfection. But it’s there. It is the DNA of the cult. It is found throughout Ellen White’s writings. She has repeatedly stated that perfection is possible and Sadventists must achieve it. This is why the cult is so legalistic. This is why there are so many, many ridiculous rules, and why it is SO important that Sadventists abide by them, because living by those rules can make you “perfect.” Actions speak louder than words.
“It’s not about needing to be ‘perfect’, nor does any Adventist I’ve met believe that that it is obtainable outside of heaven (other than our pal Jesus, of course).”
Have you questioned every Sadventist you’ve met on this topic? Let’s say you have. How do you know their answers have always been truthful? Sadventists also deny ostracization, as I said earlier, but it is a regular practice of the cult. Can you read their minds? You’ve made a pretty big statement here — that you know exactly what every Sadventist you’ve ever met believes. It doesn’t hold water, Wendy. This is simply your OPINION — or, perhaps more accurately, your sincere wish. The reality of the cult contradicts your statement. While it’s not spoken, Ellen White’s writings are riddled with the claim that pefection is possible and is required for salvation. Ellen White remains the arbiter of Sadventist doctrine, and as I often tell people who’ve had little experience with the cult, if you want to know what Sadventism REALLY teaches, what it REALLY believes, don’t listen to the pastors or executives or members who lie through their teeth when they talk about the cult, read the writings of the cult’s founder. It’s all there.
“I have never met an Adventist who believes they need to be perfect to be saved,”
Again, how do you know? With this statement, you are claiming to know everything that every Sadventist you’ve ever known or met believes. This is humanly impossible. I hope you see the silliness of your claim and stop making it, because it really doesn’t help your case at all.
“I have heard at least a thousand sermons on precisely that message in numerous churches, camps and schools.”
And again, as I pointed out in the article, not only is “You must be perfect!” never claimed in any sermon, most sermons say precisely the opposite. Meanwhile, the goal of perfection remains a vital part of Sadventism, and it is a condition of salvation.
“Honestly it’s probably the most preached thing in the church.”
I’m going to go out on a limb here and call that an exaggeration. My experience does not support that statement.
“Yes, whenever I visit the church I grew up in I get dirty looks from some members. But I also get handshakes, hugs, and beaming genuine smiles asking how I am and saying that it’s great to see me again from other members who are genuine Adventist Christians.”
Just as you don’t know what the Sadventists you know and meet really believe based only on what they say, I don’t know anything about you except what you say, and I have no reason to believe that what you say is true because I don’t know the first thing about you. You claim to be an atheist. And yet we have the two sentences I’ve quoted above. Why would an atheist repeatedly visit the church in which she grew up? I say “repeatedly” because you wrote, “Whenever I visit the church I grew up in,” which strongly suggests that you do this OFTEN. You don’t say, “The one time I visited the church in which I grew up,” you say “whenever” you visit it. That adds up to multiple visits and even implies that these visits are a regular habit of yours. Despite your claim to the contrary, Wendy, this leads me to doubt that you are an atheist. Why? Because I’ve never known any atheists who go to church. Atheists, Wendy, do not go to church. I don’t think you thought this post out too thoroughly.
The first thing in your message that led me to believe you’re a church-going Sadventist was the second sentence in your second paragraph: “It’s obvious that you like to dramatise things, and if this was your true experience of the entire Seventh Day Adventist church I’m truly sorry.” When I say this is the first thing I hear from Sadventists, I’m not exaggerating. It never fails. It’s always some rendition of the sentence you wrote. It happens. Every. Time. I think you are currently a member of the Sadventist cult. When attempting to refute the claims of atheists, it is not uncommon for Christians to CLAIM they are atheists in order to lull the atheist into believing they have that in common. I’ve found that when it comes to defending their religion, honesty is not a high priority among Christians. They will say whatever they think they need to say in order to discredit critics. And that’s really what you’re trying to do here — discredit me. I don’t think it’s working, by the way.
“but it’s always good to be right, and I think you spent a great deal of this article being very very wrong.”
I do wish you’d tell me how I am wrong. You really haven’t yet. You’ve told me how you would LIKE me to be wrong, but that’s about it.
“Honestly atheists like you make me embarrassed to identify myself with atheism.”
I suggest you bring this up with your friends the next time you’re in church. Perhaps they will help you deal with your embarrassment.
Wendy wrote: “Yes, E.G White was batshit crazy, but NONE of the SDA’s I have known throughout my life, have ever put her writings on equal ground as the Bible. ”
I’ve dug up some information for you, Wendy, that will help you understand what I meant when I pointed out that the Sadventist cult puts Ellen White on equal footing with the biblical prophets. This attitude has been present in the cult from the very beginning and has become so ingrained that, as with the goal of perfection and the punishment of ostracization, it is almost never described directly in words spoken out loud. It is, once again, in the cult’s DNA. I’m not interested in what your friends have or haven’t done or said, or what thoughts of theirs you’ve been able to read telepathically. I’m talking about the cult itself — its leaders. THEY are the ones who have elevated Ellen White to biblical status, and they are the ones who keep her there. Here is just a small sample of some of the many quotes from prominent Sadventist leaders and publications (and even Ellen herself) who, over the years, have made the cult’s stand on Ellen White quite clear:
“She [Ellen White] did one of the greatest works that I have ever known since John the revelator. She’s to me one of the greatest prophets that have ever lived. Why? Because she had the same gift that Daniel had.” — Pastor Stanley Harris, from GOD’S LAST CALL, cassette tape #811 titled “The Greatest Prophet Since John”
“The bible and the writings of Ellen White are inerrant.” — SDA Sabbath School Quarterly, teacher’s edition, February 11, 1978, pg. 112
“As Samuel was a prophet of Israel for his day, as Jeremiah was a prophet of Isreal in the days of captivity, as John the Baptist came as a special messenger of the Lord to prepare the way for Christ’s coming, so we believe that Mrs. White was a prophet to the church of Christ today.” — Official position of the Seventh-day Adventist Church taken and recorded in 1928
“I do not believe that there is a difference between the degree and quality and dimension of the inspiration of any biblical writer and Ellen White. … I believe that the DESIRE OF AGES, for example, is just as high in quality or degree of inspiration as the Gospel according to Luke. … What is the best way to keep it all in perspective and end up with Ellen White being for this church what Luke was for his generation and not one whit less in contribution and authority?” — Louis Venden, on the cassette tape “The Wilson Committee — Rea On Ellen G. White”
“Her authority transcends that of all non-inspired interpreters of the scriptures.” — Cassette tape, 8/23/80, Pacific Union College, in a discussion of Glacier View with Charles Bradford and Philip Follett. Follett was quoting from official Glacier View document: “The Relation of Ellen White’s Writings in Doctrinal Studies”
“Elder I. H. Evans, the General Conference representative at the conference declared: ‘When the statement from Sister White is read, I am sure that the majority of our brethren will feel as we feel tonight — that the lord has spoken, and we will obey.’” — THE INVISIBLE IRISHMAN: A BIOGRAPHY OF PERCY T. MAGAN by Merlin Neff, pg. 484, 1964
“I’d like to take this position that if you do not believe in the gift of prophecy, based on what the Bible has to say on it, that you don’t believe in the Bible. …The primary purpose of the gift of prophecy in relationship to scripture is to confirm scripture truth. We took the position last time that the gift of prophecy has equal authority with the bible and equal inspiration with the bible.” — Morris L. Venden, cassette tape #MY-312 titled “Church Body Building.” In the Seventh-day Adventist church, the word “prophecy,” like the word “testimonies” and the phrase “spirit of prophecy,” is shorthand, or code, for Ellen G. White. Venden was specifically referring to Ellen G. White.
“The quality of the inspiration of Ellen White is equal to that of the bible writers.” — Ron Graybill, then Associate Secretary of the Ellen G. White Estate, in a talk given at Southern Missionary College 9/27/80
“Ellen G. White was inspired in the same sense as were the bible prophets.” — Kenneth H. Wood, editor, REVIEW 9/4/80, pg. 15
“She was inspired by god as were the biblical writers.” — Don Neufeld, former Associate Editor, REVIEW, quoted in WHAT ELLEN WHITE HAS MEANT TO ME, edited by Herbert E. Douglass, 1973
“Thank you for your letter of February 6, in which you made reference to Elder Walter Rea’s meeting in Glendale, California. I think you have somehow gotten the wrong impression of that meeting, because it took no particular courage on my part to vote the way I did. All of the votes of the committee were unanimous. There was no problem with any of the actions that were taken. When we acknowledged that Ellen White had engaged in a certain amount of literary borrowing, we were not diminishing her authority as a prophet in the least. The brethren here in the General Conference do recognize that most of our people do not understand how inspired writings were developed, not only in the case of Ellen White, but also in the case of the bible authors.” — Letter from Robert Olson, Secretary, Ellen G. White Estate, to Eryl A. Cummings, February 21, 1980
“Insofar as Ellen White’s role in the church is concerned — whether pastoral or canonical — I think we must here give pause and rethink the acceptance with ease of Ford’s proposition. In his forum talk at PUC (Pacific Union College), he indicated that Ellen White’s role was pastoral, not canonical. This is a gross perversion of the truth. … The real conflict and issue today is this: Are Seventh-day Adventists being conditioned to view Ellen White as pastoral and not canonical? Shall we accept the view that a Seventh-day Adventist theologian is more dependable than a Seventh-day Adventist prophet? I highly respect many of our Seventh-day Adventist theologians. I have sat at their feet and been taught by them. I admire and respect them highly. I would like to remind you, however, that you can search the bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single text marking out theologians as having the gift of the holy spirit. The scriptures indicate however, that prophets have a gift of the holy spirit. Ellen White had that gift and she was canonical insofar as doctrinal interpretation authority is concerned.” — Letter from D. A. Delafiel, trustee of the Ellen G. White Estate, to P.C. Drewer, June 24, 1981
“Seventhday Adventists hold that Ellen G. White performed the work of a true prophet during the seventy years of her public ministry. As Samuel was a prophet, as Jeremiah was a prophet, as John the Baptist, so we believe that Mrs. White was a prophet to the church of Christ today.” — THE ADVENT REVIEW & HERALD, October 4, 1928
“We believe she has been empowered by divine illumination to speak of past events which have been brought to her attention with a greater minuteness than is set forth in any existing records, and to read the future with more than human foresight.” — Publisher’s Preface to THE GREAT CONTROVERSY (the phrase “any existing record” includes the bible in Seventh-day Adventist references to the writings of Ellen G. White)
“When I send you a testimony of warning and reproof, many of you declare it to be merely the opinion of Sister White. You have thereby insulted the Spirit of God.” — TESTIMONIES by Ellen G. White, Vol 5, pg. 661
“If you lessen the confidence of God’s people in the testimonies (White’s visions and dreams) He has sent them, you are rebelling against God” — TESTIMONIES by Ellen T. White, Vol. 5, p. 66
“In these letters which I write, in the testimonies I bear, I am presenting to you that which the Lord has presented to me. I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own views. They are what God had opened to me in vision-the precious ray of light shining from the throne” — TESTIMONIES by Ellen G. White, Vol.5, p. 67
This reminds me of that wonderful old joke that goes like this: “If you invite one Southern Baptist to go fishing with you he’ll drink all your beer. If you invite two neither one will drink any of your beer.” Conformance to social norms is a much stronger driver of behavior than fear of the Lord.
Both the Seventh-Day Adventists and the Jehovah’s Witnesses have roots in the 19th century Millerism sect following The Great Disappointment, a failed end of the world prophecy.
You might be interested in reading about the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned-over_district"<Burned-Over district. Millerism, Spiritualism, Mormonism and more all arose in roughly the same time and place; western New York state in the early 19th century.
Carp, screwed up the link
Burned-Over District
Well – whoever says different, this is *exactly* the way I remember it. I was raised in SDA church, school, up thru highschool. Grandparents on both sides were Adventists – my great grandparents must have been among the original set. Thanks, Ray – for the laugh, and the little prick of PTSD
Insisting that Sadventists are not urged by the writings of their founding “prophet” to be perfect leaves one, by default, in the equally untenable position taken by some Evangelicals. If Sadventism doesn’t teach that you must be “Christ-like,” all that’s left to gain eternal life is to accept Jesus as your savior. Trouble is, once one has made that choice and joined the “chosen,” what is to stop one from doing whatever one pleases? (Ironically, this is a charge often made against atheists–that, lacking belief in God, one has no motivation to be a good person, which is total nonsense). If you want to know where believing one is “saved” has led some of its adherents with power in the U.S. government, check out the “C Street Family” here: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/07/21/c_street
The C-Street folks, including quite a few congressmen and governors, believe that, if you accept Jesus as your savior, you are “saved” and that’s that. The normal rules no longer apply, including any need to be perfect.
Sadventists swing too far in the opposite direction–explicitly, in the writings of Ellen White cited by Ray, and implicitly by accepting White as an authority on a par with the Bible. The strain of trying not to sin was palpable for me as a kid growing up. I’d walk down the aisle at altar calls and rededicate myself, enjoying a fleeting feeling of sinlessness. But when even a vagrant thought passing through your head can be a sin, that feeling can’t last long. For Sadventists who are not impervious to church doctrine (and there are some of those in every church who go for other reasons), the guilt and shame over being sinful and the anxiety over whether one will be “saved” are never far beneath the surface. They practically guarantee a life of torment, quite often unacknowledged because of other requirements the cult makes to display happiness and a posture of being “blessed” to the outside world. If you could realize you were miserable, you’d quit doing what causes it, right?
Ray is correct, if you’re a Sadventist, it’s not enough to accept Jesus, you have to be Christ-like. You can’t be–the Bible says your righteousness is as “filthy rags”–but you’ve got to try continually. Anyone claiming familiarity with this cult who says otherwise is either jettisoning honesty in an effort to defend the cult, or somehow managed to go to church without ever absorbing a fundamental tenet taught there.
This is so strange. I’m an atheist. I have good adventist friends, and I am their friend and sister! I am always welcome, and they never say anything ill to me. My mother, who was a fervent adventist and now is quite bleak and unsure about it all, is loved. Judgemental would be the last word I’d use. Even my intolerant, atheist father appreciates them! True, we don’t go into clinch, and they are a bit boring and single minded, but still. Your description just doesn’t hold. These people are the nicest and most forgiving I know. (And ignorant about many things, but that is quite another question.) I must stand up for them!
I’m sorry to have replied a bit too quickly. Now I have read the entire text and all the commentaries.
It makes me so confused. Are the Swedish SDA different? Have I been completely fooled? I feel I need to go back to that church, and debunk either them or you! They feel so honest and loving… And close-minded. Is that even compatible? Are they hoping to lure me in, or “save” me?
I certainly need to dig a bit deeper into this EGW-cult. It is true that I have heard her name mentioned many times, but I never thought she is as important as you make her be. Hmm. Maybe she is less taught to the younger? I’ve gone very little to bible study since before my teens, and wouldn’t know what older members are speaking about.
One thing is true, and that is while I never really believed in god, I wanted to believe, and felt sometimes miserable for not believing. Being perfect was even further away, but small things did make me think twice. I am very sceptical by nature (I like to flatter myself), and I wonder how someone with to SDA parents and a less questioning mind would feel, if even I was ashamed. Horrible idea, and I am so glad to just have my own, one life and go about doing what I feel is right, without any god watching over my shoulder to check on me.
@Pelikan – Perhaps there is some difference between Swedish and US SDA members just by virtue of the difference of the nations. The US currently fosters and supports fundamentalism.
I’ve had my bouts with mourning over what my perception of god was before I admitted to atheism. But like you, I am grateful every day that I dont have to exist under the rule of anyone else’s perception of god – especially that of organized religion.
There are certainly differences. In Sweden nobody talks about going to church, and religious people almost seem ashamed of mentioning their faith. In Sweden the religious are the queer ones! Also in France, where I currently live, religion is all but forgotten. Only because of the Muslim immigrants do we really talk about religion in Europe, I believe. Otherwise it is something people do at home, and it doesn’t (and shouldn’t!!!) affect the society.
What I’ve read about the situation in the US is just frightening. It’s like a 3rd world country, taking advice from sorcerers and marabouts. That every official speech is finished with the words “God bless you/this country/our troops”… Mind boggling for a European!
Actually I have found my religion. I’m currently considering myself a pastafarian. And I’ve converted my husband!
I find the article very accurate as a 4th or maybe even 5th generation Adventist. I’ve left the church, and “gone out into the world” as Adventist would put it, but when I am back around other people I know to be SDA I still feel the pressure to not say or do anything to rock the boat, knowing that I will likely get a “pep talk” about how I should come back to church, and stop living my life the way I’m living it, and I’ll feel compelled to nod in agreement even if just to get them off my back, even though I think they are wrong, because I know if I stand up for myself, it’s gonna turn into a very long stupid conversation, cause they won’t back down and accept my choice.
Result : I spend very little time with the friends I had growing up in that little insular community, and really currently have very few friends at all because I’m stuck in between to worlds. The person I’m trying to become (a “secular person exercising my freewill”) and the person I grew up as (a kid who didn’t know anything about life outside the SDA church until I was in my 20s.)
I’m at a difficult crossroads and it would almost be easier to go back into the church at the moment just because of my life circumstances, but I very earnestly, don’t want to be part of that crowd anymore.
Would like to say one thing I do still believe though (although I don’t believe it is a matter of if you’re gonna go to hell or not, as Adventist tend to advocate.) The dietary rules, which were laughable in E.G. Whites day, and still not in agreement with popular society, have proven to greatly improve the health of individuals who truly follow them. NOTE HOWEVER: Most Adventist, even the ones that are truly vegetarian, don’t actually follow those rules and are physically very unhealthy. All the fake veggiemeats used to substitute the real thing, are, because of the process used to make them, just as unhealthy and sometimes more unhealthy than the real thing.
If you do want to improve your health, check out the “Coronary Health Improvement Project (C.H.I.P.)” Search for it online. I’ll say upfront, the guy that created it is in fact Adventist, but stats don’t lie, and the program works. People reverse heart problems and get off their insulin using this program. It has to be a long term change in lifestyle, and not even most Adventist can deal with the changes, because it pretty much endorses a raw foods diet, and even in the Adventist Veggiemeat community, they don’t eat healthy. Funny though, as crazy as all the health message sounds, it actually works for those that truly follow it (not that many do)
Like I said though, I don’t believe it’s a matter of salvation, it’s just a matter of do you like heart attacks and diabetes, or do you want to live a little longer without all the medications. There is a second side to the coin. The health profession in the U.S. is as crazy as religion. They don’t believe in preventing the decease, or even changing peoples lifestyles to cure the decease, they believe in treating the symptoms with drugs and trying to invent that miracle pill to make it all go away instead of teaching people to eat right, which would cure 80% of decease in this country. Ever wonder why third world countries actually have healthier people? They don’t have access to the garbage that is killing the U.S. True, they have malnutrition problems due to lack of food, but those that do get food have fewer cancers, no diabetes, next to no heart decease, and doesn’t even matter if they smoke, most health problems are linked to bad diet, and no one cares.
So yeah, balance people, just call SDA’s the reverse of the health community, or wait, call us hypocrites, because we run hospitals that practice traditional bad medicine too! I’m about five houses from an Adventist Hospital as I type this. Nothing special about that hospital that seems any different from any other hospital, accept the name!
Chuck — I hope you will continue your journey out of Sadventism and do everything you possibly can to avoid going backward. I don’t think the Sadventism is entirely out of you yet, and that’s not going to happen until you put more and more distance between yourself and the cult. I say that because you still seem to think there is something special about the Sadventist health message. There is not. Ellen White had no insight into anything accept how to control ignorant people. That’s it. That was her gift. Nothing else. Ellen White stole everything she ever wrote from other writers, and her “health message” was no more advanced than the popular trends of her day. In fact, her writing reflected all the things that were WRONG about those popular trends. Anything Ellen White wrote about health that was accurate was purely coincidental.
The “health message” is one of the most comical things about Sadventists. They’ve gotten the idea that because they have the writings of Ellen White under their belt, they’re all experts on the subject. When they’re not lecturing you about god, Jesus, heaven, the last days and the Sunday law, they’re telling exactly you how you should eat. At times, it’s hilarious. Some of them can hardly function in their day-to-day lives because they’ve been so emotionally and socially crippled by their cult, but they know EXACTLY what you should be eating to avoid heart attacks, diabetes, and every other ailment known to man. Most of them don’t know that the “health message” they’re so proud of started out as just one single edict: DON’T MASTURBATE! That was it. That is the foundation of Ellen White’s entire “health message.” God showed her that whacking the willy and palming the taco WILL KILL YOU, and every dietary guideline that began the Sadventist “health message” was put in place to avoid the urge to masturbate. All those foods Ellen said to avoid — spicy foods, pepper, vinegar, meats — were bad because they “inflamed the animal passions” in people and made them want to jerk off. You know what that means? That means you can safely dismiss EVERYTHING Ellen White ever wrote about “health.”
I had some health problems when I was a child that had me going in and out of hospitals a lot. Back then, my parents would only take me to Sadventist doctors, of course, because those doctors not only went to medical school, they had the message of Sister White behind them. The Sadventists doctors said there was nothing wrong with me, and a couple of them even said I was making it up, just trying to get attention. They were wrong, but we didn’t find that out until my parents finally started taking me to godless, wicked NON-Sadventist doctors. I wouldn’t take my pet hermit crab to a Seventh-day Adventist doctor. I feel so strongly about this that when I see a new doctor for the first time, I inquire about his or her religious affiliation, and I also take a careful look at the waiting room and offices for any signs of Sadventism in particular, and religion in general. On my first visit to a new doctor some years ago, I discovered that he was a Sadventist and I immediately walked out. I didn’t another word, I just stood up and left. They have been infected with certain ideas that are complete and utter bullshit; I do not want to risk putting my health into the hands of someone who believes such nonsense.
By the way, Chuck, statistics lie all the time. They are extremely malleable and can be used to say just about anything. A few years ago, the hilarious and surprisingly informative Showtime series PENN & TELLER: BULLSHIT! did an episode on the subject of statistics and revealed how easy it is to use them to make almost any point you want to make. You know … like the bible! I recommend that episode if you can find it. I don’t know anything about C.H.I.P., but the fact that a Sadventist is behind it makes it suspect.
Granted motivations behind the health message may be based in something false, and it’s use as doctrinal truth was in error. Even in the secular community such a diet has been shown to have more benefits than ill effects. Ironic coincidence, I would have to agree. It seems the C.H.I.P. program has gotten national an international recognition in the secular health community as well.
As far as all the Sadventism being gone out of me, you’re correct in the assumption that I am still dealing with some issues with myself, one of the largest is being back home with my parents after a messy divorce, and having to listen to mom moan about me not taking my kids to church. Tough times.
Do American SDA believe in hell? I thought that was a big redeeming part of SDA – that they promise heaven, but don’t threat with hell. I’ve “learned” (if a myth can be learned!) that we die, and wait unconscious for judgement day. Then Jesus would judge our lives, and those believing would go to heaven and the others would just disappear. No hell fires, just plain nothing.
But I hear you speaking of hell (Chuck). Was it meant literally?
Pelikan — Sadventists do not believe in the eternal hell that Jesus promised and in which traditional Christianity believes. Instead, they believe that those who do not go to heaven will be thrown into a lake of fire, where they will burn for a time appropriate to the wickedness of their lives. I’ve always thought the phrase “lake of fire” puts more of a resort-like spin on god’s judgment, unlike “hell,” which sounds more like … well … hell. However, while Sadventists do not believe that we will be punished in eternal torment, they more than make up for it by making life on earth as miserable as possible.
Yup, that’s about how I have always understood it as a lifelong SDA. Even saw the question asked in one of the Revelation Seminars that Doug Batchelor did about 10 years ago. That’s almost a quote of what he said as a leading evangelist of the SDA church.
In SDA theology, as I recall, it’s eternal in the sense that the end result can not and will not ever be undone. Eternal Death, never to live again, and to be erased from memory of having ever existed.
In most christian theologies that do believe in hell, it’s eternal fire going for ever and ever, the people in hell never die, they just live in eternal torment.
Bible speaks of both eternal fire and eternal death, and that’s where I believe the idea of the adventist view comes from. You can’t have eternal death if you are continuously being kept alive for torment in eternal hell.
I think it’s a biblical view – The bible suggest that only the righteous will live forever. For an eternal hell where people never die, it would mean everyone gets eternal life, just not the awesome version of heaven.
So in a sense, Adventist do believe in an eternal hell, but only in the sense that the result of hell is eternal, not that it will burn forever and ever.
Good stuff Ray. I also grew up in the system (I actually think I may have gone to high school with some of the people in that video), my grandfather was an adventist preacher, both my parents were adventist church school teachers, and to this day my closest friends are all people whom I met growing up adventist (of course we are all atheists now).
I’ve never really been angry toward the church or those in it, more sad really to see so many people wasting their lives. But you have made me realize that maybe we should get a little pissed off. While all religion’s/cults are ridiculous, the SDA’s maintain a special place at the crazy table.
Chuck — The bible suggests all kinds of things, almost all of it batshit-crazy. It’s like a big glob of evil Play-Doh — you can do almost anything with it. How it’s interpreted is not the problem. The problem is that in 2011, that ancient book of ignorance, superstition and perversion is still being interpreted. You mentioned Doug Batchelor. There’s a world-class greedy, lying bullshit artist. One of his sons wants nothing to do with him because he’s such a fraud. Everything about him is a lie. There are two things wrong with Amazing Facts. 1.) They aren’t amazing because 2.) They aren’t facts. He’s been lying about himself and his work for so long, I don’t think Pastor Doug would recognize a fact if he saw one.
John — Thank you. I like the way you casually add, “Of course, we are all atheists now.” That’s encouraging! I keep hearing that the Sadventist cult is losing its young people in large numbers. I hope that’s true. It wouldn’t surprise me, because young people suffer the most in that cult. Thanks for posting.
Agreed Ray, was just stating the way I was taught to interpret it, as I’m sure you also were taught growing up, and how the church officially views it, and of course Doug is a fraud, he’s been the Adventist Church’s gold mine evangelist ever since they discovered him in the hills over 20 years ago. The cave man poster child with show-biz millionare parents.
Yeah. That whole cave man story is a load of shit. There is no clearer sign that Seventh-day Adventism is a bunch of crap than that man.
Ray – A little extra background about me…
Grew up in Northern California, specifically the area around Chico. Have a sister in the Napa area, many friends (although getting to be fewer all the time) around P.U.C. (Former Sadventist here know what that means, oh do you find it ironic that Ellen Whites last home before she passed on to whereever, was in the middle of wine country?)
The town I currently call home is home to one of the larger and even more corrupt than is typical of SDA churches in the area (has been denounced by many old school SDAs for their progressively modern policies at this church, ordination of women, drums in the church, oh my!, Ellen White would roll over in her grave!)
There have been many cults in the area within 90 miles of here, and all have roots right in this little town. The latest sub-cult just popped up about 2 years ago. A little camp started by a young man after he dropped out of P.U.C. after being “convicted by God” that P.U.C. was corrupt and not where he belonged. Camp is based in Berry Creek, CA – under the ministry titled “The Oak and the Acorn” It’s the latest fanatical craze in the area, visiting all the area SDA churches, and getting much praise, by those that are looking to go back to earlier ways of the SDA church as it would have been 30+ years ago, more pios, more bigotted, and twice as legalistic as it is even today (and it is still very legalistic today).
I’ve seen five sub cults come through the Paradise SDA church and other area churches since the 80s. All of them initially get praises, but sooner or later get so extreme that the leaders get excommunicated by the church and the related ministries are crushed. Still stay in tune with this stuff because my dad is involved in a video ministry at the Paradise Church, and often see samples of his work on DVDs that he puts on the T.V. while I’m visiting.
He pokes a lot of fun at the more obsurd things that come out, he’s not blind to reality about it, but when he reached the point in his life that he wasn’t sure what he believed, he decided, “What could it hurt, if the church is wrong, no skin off his nose, so there is no after life, put hope in false hope, but hey, there is a chance it’s true, why not put faith in it?” I went the other way, sick of being part of one group of people, never getting out of the shell, never meeting anyone new that believed differently, and wanting to make my mark in the world.
Still haven’t made my mark, but I have my goals and the church can only hold me back at this point. My ideals don’t match the official church philosophy. I’m not an athiest, but I’m not a Christian. I don’t claim a religion or a higher power, believe there is maybe one out there, so guess I’m closer to being agnostic than anything else.
If there is a God and a heaven, I believe the people that will make it there will be the people that lived honest lives, and that could be anyone from any faith, even athiest perhaps, I mean, they lived honest lives right? They were loving people right? Who cares if they were athiest, agnostic, islamic, christian, hindu, buddhist, etc. I’m not some God making the judgement, what do I care? Just don’t sh*t on me, I won’t sh*t on you.
Chuck
ChuckA here; just sayin’ Hi to another Chuck.
Question to Chuck:
Just for clarification, are you the same Chuck who used to occasionally comment on GifS?
[Also, perhaps, on Austin Cline's atheist Site.]
I guess this is what can happen when any of us use a common name, with only a slight variation…
ala My moniker, f’rnstance.
Maybe it’s time for me, like Ray, to either use my “regular” name or dream up another (irregular?) avatar…zama-zama.
And then, of course…there’s the (infamous?)…Chuck Norris?
Sorry for the interruption.
As you were, folks…?
Chuck — We don’t live too far apart! I’m in the Redding area. I’ve been to the Paradise church. When I was attending Rio Lindo Academy, I was in the choir, the Lindaires, and we performed there twice. Pulling out of the Sadventist cult is extremely difficult, and it’s even more difficult when your circumstances don’t allow you to put some physical distance between it and yourself. I have great admiration for your determination to break free and have a life “out in the world,” as they say. I hope you continue to flourish in that regard. I’m intrigued by the number of subcults you’ve seen in that area, and I’m especially interested in “The Oak and the Acorn.” I’ll keep an eye open for them.
Are women not ordained pastors in U.S. SDA?
I really must ask my adventist friends if they’ve been to the US, to see what they think of the SDA over there. I’d say that they are not only as crazy as in Sweden, but really nasty as well! My mother has never been harassed, only warmly welcomed when finally she shows up in church again, and I feel the same the few times I go. That’s why I find it so difficult to call SDA a sect, in spite of their weird beliefs.
Could you have had a good friend who is not adventist, when you were a member of the church? If yes, without doing it in the sole purpose of trying convert him/her?
Pelikan — No, women most definitely are not ordained ministers in the Sadventist cult here in the United States. Here, the Sadventists are so insular that it’s difficult to make friends outside the cult. Also, they’re just so damned WEIRD that it’s hard to get along with people who aren’t Sadventists because you’re always having to explain yourself — why you don’t eat pork or seafood, drink coffee or cola, go to movies, dance, drink alcohol, why you can’t do anything on Friday nights and Saturdays. And if you’re a lax Sadventist who only follows some of the rules, you have to explain that, too. It’s a lot of work being a Sadventist with friends outside the cult, and frankly, most people just don’t want to put with the weirdness. On top of that, it’s discouraged. When you’re a Sadventist, you know your lifestyle is weird, but you are, as Ellen White wrote, “god’s peculiar people.” You are different because you are following the One True Faith and everyone else, of course, is wrong. You’re probably told that people outside the cult are a bad influence. I know when I was a kid, my parents were suspicious of anyone I knew who wasn’t a Sadventist.
I can’t speak for the US, but I’m given to understand that in Australia there are a number of female church pastors – but they are certainly not ordained. Instead, I heard that recently a new category of “commissioned” ministers has been created specifically for women. “Commissioned” is a kind of 2nd-class pseudo-ordination status, with at least one key distinction being that ordained ministers can ordain others, but commissioned ministers cannot even commission others – got to keep the means of authority transmission firmly under control of those with the right bits in their pants, don’t you know!
So, your chromosomes determine whether you can be a real pastor or not. Or maybe it’s just based on your apparent sex? What would happen if the hierarchical powers confronted with an intersex person – either due to a medical condition, or choosing to be transgendered – seeking ordination. Is it wrong to ordain someone if they appear to be female, even though they may have male chromosomes? But Man looks on the face but God looks on the heart, so surely God doesn’t think it’s wrong if you look completely feminine, but have male chromosomes – as happens in some intersex conditions? Hmmmm, maybe a genetic test should be mandatory before anyone gets ordained to make sure no genetic females can (and have not) infiltrated the ranks of the ordained?
And what does God think is allowable for those who aren’t clearly male or female according to their chromosomes? A surprising number of people have neither XX nor XY but rather some other more complicated configuration. Since God made them that way, surely he knows whether he wants them to be ordained or not and can make his feelings known? (Wanna bet he lets the church know that all people of ambiguous sex should be quietly dissuaded from seeking positions of church authority in the first place?)
And if the church powers can figure that out, the follow-on question is who are those people allowed to marry? Obviously there can’t be any blessings for gay marriages, which is a bit of a worry if some people look like a different sex than their DNA say. If you’re chromosomes mark you as one sex and your appearance as another, does God get mad if both you and your partner have the same chromosomes, or because you both appear to be the same sex to casual observers? Or is either case a problem, so God says – just like he does to gay people – tough luck about the way you are made, but you can’t marry anyone you love?
Last G.C. there was a big todo about ordaining women. The G.C. World Division said no, but the North American Division took cart blanche to do it anyways, so there are some lines of disunity in the church at current. Some other divisions have taken to commissioning women as a work around for the World Division saying no way.
Equal Rights vs. the Written Rules of a FEMALE church founder, that refused ordination because she believed in Patriarchal Rule. Just a perfect example of how messed up the church is.
I’m so excited to have found this site. I’m a former sadventist from a family of the same. Growing up in small towns where SDAs were definitely a minority, I often felt like a freak due to the dietary and activity sanctions. Now I sometimes feel like a freak because I’m an atheist at a time when religious fundamentalism is on the rise and too many people seem to be “stupid – and damn proud of it”. It’s nice to know there are other ex-sadventists who have not only put the SDA church behind them but have become atheists as well.
My parents went to school together at Glendale Adventist Academy, but really met at PUC (a.k.a “Puke”) . My mom was raised a sadventist; my dad was sent to adventist schools to “straighten” him out as a teenager. My parents have both become more religious as they’ve gotten older, and one of the most stressful things in my life right now is the religious harangues I get from my aging mom, followed by sobbing entreaties to “come back to Jesus” before it’s too late. She can’t bear the thought of being in heaven for all eternity without all her children! I sometimes ask her why the hell she’d want to spend all eternity with a bastard of a god who’d separate a mother from her children in the first place, or how she’s so sure she’s going to heaven herself; but usually I try to ease away from the subject when she gets too upset. It’s hard not to be outraged at the stress her own beliefs cause her….not to mention the financial hardship it’s put them in. Recently I found out that my mom donated her retirement fund to the church – to make up for some tithe she felt she owed from her “backsliding” years during the 70s! I bet the church took it without a single qualm, an old lady’s retirement. Bastards are no different than any of the other money-grubbing evangelicals.
I also still receive the Adventist Review and the Gleaner – another gift from Mom. I actually read them too, just to see what no good the church is up to. In the latest issue of the AR there’s an article about how sadventist schools should deal with the “creation vs. evolution” issue – apparently by sticking their fingers in their ears and saying “Naananaanana! Can’t hear none of that biology, geology or astronomy stuff! If it ain’t in the bible, and it ain’t kosher according to Ellen G. Snow White, then it ain’t so!” – while using the latest satellite and communication technology to beam their bullshit around the world, putting IMacs in every class, and utilizing the latest in biotechnology and nuclear medicine in all their Holy Hospitals. I’m always tempted to write in and point out the irony, but I know they’d never publish it!
And no, I didn’t become an atheist because I’ve got some grudge against the church. I like to think it’s because I finally learned how to use my brain for critical thinking, and realized that I just didn’t want to waste the rest of my short life worrying, praying, tithing, and scrutinizing myself and others every waking hour over a bunch of Bronze Age fairy-tales and Victorian hysteria.
Thank you so much for posting, Sue. We have a lot in common. There are more of us around than you might think. You wrote, “And no, I didn’t become an atheist because I’ve got some grudge against the church.” That is usually the first accusation leveled by defensive Sadventists eager to discredit former Sadventists who criticize the cult. Everything we say can be dismissed because we’re just bitter and angry and have a vendetta. Not true. Sadventism is what eventually led me to atheism because once I began to see the cult clearly for what it is, the next step was to realize that that’s the truth about all religion.
Thanks for the warm welcome! By the way, I love that video – it’s so true. I remember waiting in line to see “The Empire Strikes Back” with a friend, scoping the immediate area for any church members who might be casing the joint for wayward adventist teens. Once inside, where no decent Sadventist would dare set foot, I still couldn’t relax and enjoy the movie or the forbidden Coke I was drinking in the dark – because, you know, Jesus was always watching. He could see you masturbating at the bottom of a mine shaft at midnight. He’d know if you even thought about it. Screwed up a lot of normal teenage fun for me. Even though I knew that was stupid, it’s hard to overcome a lifetime of scare-stories. Damn, I could have used that app!
Great them all.article and comments I’ve enjoyed. My husbands family both sides are SDA,and we were married 29 yrs ago in a SDA churh before I knew what a SDA really was,after about 14 yrs of marriage we studied our way into the church,after we became members and did the bible studies(you cant be baptized without doing the studies)then the pastor said to us we should stop eating meat,well if that was so important why didnt they go over that in the studies? That was our first red flag. then came the seminars and the advertisements for them,not saying who was putting them on drove me nuts,another flag.
Then when I took off my wedding band one day a sister came up to me and said how proud she was of me for doing that,I put it back on. Oh the stories i heard of kids who rode their bikes on the sabbath and getting hurt,and their parents would say “well you shouldnt have rode on the sabbath. My husband as a kid could only go wading in the water on the sabbath.
I know a sadventist who renounced his love for dairy products ,he was most miserable,he got up and left the sanctuary once when my daughter was signing because there were drums in the background music,he is in prison today for molesting his grandaughter. What you say is so true,we stayed for 14 yrs,it was hard pulling out,and ppl will say to me “I’m sorry”for what I was never mad at anyone in the church I loved those ppl,I got pissed at the system and EGW. And it is true I can say my hubbys family never even bring EGW up and they will say they stick to the bible and the bible only,but she is preached in the SS lessons,from the pulpit,you cant ignore her she is the pink elephant in the room. I couldnt ignore her any longer,and they feel sorry for me,but its me who really feel sorry for them.
Now Im just in limbo,wouldnt call myself an athiest,because I believe in creation,but I havent joined a church since leaving 6 yrs ago,nor do I EVER want too. I believe in the use of marijuana and until a pastor can say that was created by God for our usage for healing and so much more,and stop calling it the “devils”weed,then maybe I’d pay attention in what they have to say,for now Im quite content to just be me,live by the golden rule,be in tune with nature and talk to God from my heart,just as simple as it gets.
I couldnt go back and edit after seeing my typing errors,sorry:)
I’ll also never forget one time a lady that was taking studies once brought a ham to potluck(apparently they hadnt gotten that far in the studies of the unclean meat) well the head deacon told her it wasnt allowed on the table,she never came back.
I was an Sadventist for 21 years before I smartned up and had the courage to leave. I had so many negative experiences that it actually outweighed the good. I went to a very strict SDA university and it messed me up. I know what you mean by the expectation of perfection. They keep saying it is by faith you are saved and yet you keep getting all these rules and guidelines that you should follow otherwise to hell you will go. I didn’t like how we were forced to worship at 5AM every morning, regardless of what time your class starts. When i say forced, I mean alarm bells would sound throughout the whole dormitoy to wake everyone up. If you accumulate enough absences your punishment then is to clean the bathrooms. Growing up I always heard the word persecution. Was always told that someday before Jesus comes all who keep the Sabbath will be totured and killed. You think I focused on the coming of Jesus? NO way. I remember feeling scared and dreading the pain and torture that was to come.
I was so frustrated to the point that I actually considered atheism. I struggled with my faith for a decade before I actually walked into a church again. I still am a Christian although I belong to a non-denominational church now. One thing I have to say, it wasn’t until I left the SDA religion that I felt unburned and free and at peace with Christianity. Gone are the scare tactics and guilt trips that used to plauge. Phew! It feels good!
oops! i meant to say UNBURDENED not unburned. sorry.
Just found this site because a friend used the word “sadventist” casually in an email, and I’d never heard of it. Google –> here. I refer to myself as an Xadventist – (probably not particular clever). Why no postings since April 19? I want to spend more time, reading every word. Ray’s postings resonate for me, personally and deeply, but I’ve learned it’s quite useless to attempt to convince anyone of anything. Nevertheless, when you stumble across something that feels so TRUE, like this site feels to me, it’s a precious thing.
Thank you, HollyEva! I’m glad you enjoy the site. Please keep visiting. I just posted a new article titled “The Christian Agenda: Eradicate the Gays!” Thanks again for the kind words.
Of course you’re right that SDA is a cult – I’ve known two different ex-SDA members who have got away from it and joined mainstream churches, and become much happier and more balanced people. However, I LOVE this video, and if (as you say) it is an official SDA video then it must at least prove that they have a sense of humour.
However, I’m sad to read your second paragraph. I’m a committed Christian (in a mainstream denomination – Anglican/Episcopalian, as a matter of interest) and I do not spend my time judging, nor do I live a judgmental lifestyle. It’s not my place to judge others, and I don’t. I respect your views, but (with respect) find them somewhat sweeping. But please don’t think I’m being judgmental! It’s just an opinion.
My views in this respect are very nicely summed up on my church’s website, which I quote: “We hold to an open policy of welcome and worship. This means that everybody is welcome at any of our church services. We recognise our own sinfulness, and as such we do not judge others, lest we ourselves be judged. Our worship is open to all people of any gender, race, skin colour, sexuality, age, or creed – we care about people’s present and their future, so we do not waste time judging anybody’s past.”
Cults will always be fascinated by questions of morality (as they interpret it) because that is a means of control. Christianity is about relationship, not morality, and as such I am very interested in you and who you are, but have little interest in your moral values, as long as they keep you within due bounds with your neighbours, and the legalities of your nation! I do have a personal relationship with Jesus, and I do hope and pray that one day you will too (please don’t interpret that as forcing anything down your throat – it’s just a hope of mine); it is enough for me to know that if that day should ever come, then a natural by-product of that relationship will be a relatively high overlap of moral values, even if not complete agreement. Meanwhile, I wish you every happiness on your current path.
Timothy wrote: “I’ve known two different ex-SDA members who have got away from it and joined mainstream churches, and become much happier and more balanced people.”
“Happier and more balanced” are quite relative in this case, I think. I would say they’ve jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Timothy wrote: “However, I LOVE this video, and if (as you say) it is an official SDA video then it must at least prove that they have a sense of humour.”
It is what I said it is. I find their sense of humor disturbing because obviously they are aware of their problem but do nothing about it, and yet they can joke about it. Having been raised in the cult, I can say from experience that their “sense of humor” tests the definition of that phrase.
“However, I’m sad to read your second paragraph.”
Don’t be.
“I’m a committed Christian (in a mainstream denomination – Anglican/Episcopalian, as a matter of interest)”
While Sadventism is a pseudo-Christian cult, the differences between Sadventism and mainstream Christianity lie mostly in the rules. Sadventists are caught up in rules regarding diet, dress, entertainment, etc., and there are doctrinal differences. Sadventists also believe in the divine inspiration of Ellen G. White and nobody else does. But believing that White received visions from god is no crazier than believing that a virgin got pregnant and had a baby, or that people come back from the dead and go about their business. Sadventism may meet the definition of a cult, but beyond the differences, the denomination is difficult to tell apart from mainstream Christianity, which is why they’ve been so successful in blending in to the casual observer. The fact that you are a member of a “mainstream denomination” does not, as you seem to think, give you a leg up on the Sadventists. It just means that your denomination is older and more readily accepted. It makes no more sense than Sadventism and shares most of the problems inherent in that cult.
“I do not spend my time judging, nor do I live a judgmental lifestyle. It’s not my place to judge others, and I don’t.”
Please be aware that every Christian who draws breath makes the same exact claim — wrongly, I’m afraid. If (as you say) you do not live a judgmental lifestyle, that doesn’t change the fact that Christianity is an extremely judgmental religion. Judgment is part of the fabric of the belief system. Believing that Christians will go to heaven and non-Christians will not — a claim attributed to Jesus in the bible — is practically the definition of judgment. Of course, most Christians are quick to respond to that by pointing out that THEY don’t make that claim, the BIBLE does. But Christianity is based on the bible, so every judgmental word in that dusty, hateful, blood-soaked old book applies to Christianity. Christians accept the bible’s definition of “sin,” which has absolutely nothing to do with reality, and they apply it to everyone around them. THAT is judgment. Christianity has judgment as its very foundation. If you are a Christian and believe what the Christian faith teaches, then even if you never utter a word of judgment aloud to anyone, you are judgmental in your view of others. Separating judgment from Christianity is like trying to separate wet from water.
“I respect your views, but (with respect) find them somewhat sweeping.”
Christians always do. They complain that I suggest all Christians are alike, that I’m painting them all with a broad brush. Of course, with very, very few exceptions, they all respond in precisely the same way, say precisely the same things and hold, with minor differences, precisely the same beliefs. It seems that Christians believe themselves to be a group teeming with diversity. I have not found that to be the case at all. Any real differences lie in the personalities of individuals. I have friends who are Christians. They are good people not because of their religion but in spite of it. Their religion is just one aspect of their lives and does not permeate everything about them and they are often disgusted by the things their fellow Christians are motivated to do by their religious beliefs. My views are not sweeping generalizations. They’re observations. The problem is the cookie-cutter uniformity among Christians. I’m not the person you need to talk to about that.
“Cults will always be fascinated by questions of morality (as they interpret it) because that is a means of control. Christianity is about relationship, not morality,”
You are either being very disingenuous or you don’t understand your own religion. That may be your own little personal definition of Christianity, but it conflicts with the reality of Christianity. First, EVERY religion — ALL religion — is about control but CLAIMS to be about morality, and Christianity is not only no exception to that, it’s a poster child for it. Christianity believes itself to be the SOURCE of morality. And yes, I am frequently told that Christianity is “about a relationship.” I have a problem with that. I confine my relationships to people I can see, hear and touch, people with whom I can interact. I do not have relationships with invisible beings for whose existence there is not one tiny shred of evidence. I used to do that, but I gave up imaginary friends before I hit the age of ten.
“I do have a personal relationship with Jesus,”
When did you see him last? What was he wearing? What does his voice sound like? What does he look like? How tall is he? What does he like to eat? I can answer ALL of those questions very specifically about the people with whom I have personal relationships in my life. You cannot answer any of those questions about Jesus. Any “relationship” you have with Jesus is purely imaginary. It is not “a personal relationship.” That’s a very specific thing that one cannot have with an invisible, silent person who does not exist. You can say you have a “personal relationship with Jesus” all you want, but it is a perversion of the language and a delusional concept.
“and I do hope and pray that one day you will too”
See my earlier comment about imaginary friends. That’s not going to happen. Once you go fact, you never go back.
“it is enough for me to know that if that day should ever come, then a natural by-product of that relationship will be a relatively high overlap of moral values, even if not complete agreement.”
That sentence doesn’t really add up and means nothing. But I THINK you are suggesting that Christianity shares my morals. It does not. Christianity is inherently immoral. First of all, the entire religion is based on human sacrifice. That fact alone makes it repugnant. It claims that a man had to die in order for me to be saved and that his death was for me personally even though I was never consulted in this matter. Had I been consulted, I would have been HORRIFIED, and I would have done everything I could to PREVENT this awful human sacrifice — on my behalf or anyone else’s — because I value human life far too much. Christianity maintains that when I “sin,” all I have to do is ask the forgiveness of an invisible man and then my “sin” disappears. This is an immoral abdication of responsibility that I find unacceptable. I and I alone am responsible for the things I do, and when I do something that in some way wrongs or hurts another person, it is my responsibility alone to make it right. There is no invisible forgiver in the sky and I have to be able to look myself in the mirror, therefore I would never again subscribe to the Christian belief system. The only reason I did in the first place was that it was forced on me without my consent as a very small child, a practice that is extremely common among Christians and which I consider abusive, which is also immoral in my book. Christianity is also based on fear — the fear of eternal punishment. If Christians do good things, it is for all the wrong reasons. They do them to win points with their invisible, unprovable god and/or to avoid that eternal punishment. This offends my sense of morality. The people I admire do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. It is to those people I look for inspiration, not to an ancient book that tells me I should do certain things or I’m gonna buuuurn. Nor do I look for inspiration to people who maintain belief in that ancient book because they are manipulated by fear. There is no “relatively high overlap of moral values” between my worldview and Christianity. If I were to look to Christianity for anything, it would be for an example of what NOT to do and think in virtually any and all situations.
Because you’re a Christian, Thomas, you are totally unaware of the condescension in your post in this thread. You cannot see it because, like immorality and judgment, condescension is part of the fabric of Christianity. I find it very offensive, but I’ve lived with it my entire life and I’m able to tolerate it — to a certain point. You will be tempted to respond to my post with a defense of your religion, to tell me how wrong and judgmental and intolerant I’m being and what a sweeping generalization I’m making about your religion. I’ve heard and read everything you will be tempted to write in your post so many times that I could probably write it myself and come astonishingly close to whatever it is you would post. Doing that would test my tolerance, Thomas. Keep in mind that this is an atheist blog. We’ve heard it all before. We know the drill. We aren’t here to listen to you make excuses for a religion that we already understand perfectly well and have firmly and irrevocably rejected. Should you decide to post again, read the posting rules and make sure you don’t violate them. But I advise against it. That sort of thing really doesn’t go over well here.
Hi – it’s Timothy again – but you can go on calling me Thomas if you prefer – it’s a good name!
I’m sorry that you anticipate that I might want to break your posting rules – I have no wish to do so, and no intention of doing so. I did actually read your rules first, and they did state that Christians could post here (albeit with certain limitations, which I was – and still am – quite happy to abide by).
My main point was that, whilst I am in total agreement with you about the cult-nature of the SDA movement, there is an obvious humour and self-deprecation in that video. I have no desire to defend SDA-ism, but I do commend the ability to poke fun at oneself.
However, I am struck by your statement (in your reply to me) that my own original post was full of condescension. I certainly didn’t intend that, and I’m sorry if that is how you read it. I’d be genuinely interested to know in what ways you felt my post to be condescending, as I often have opportunities to talk about my faith with people who do not share it, and I would like to be able to do so without giving the impression of condescension. If you can point at anything specific, I’d be very interested. I may not agree with you (because, after all, I was not intending condescension), but it may be helpful nonetheless.
I appreciate that (as you say) you must have heard from hundreds of believers in the past, and heard hundreds of arguments before. Likewise, I have encountered hundreds of non-believers before, and heard all the atheist arguments many times over. I don’t think you’re condescending just by stating what you believe, and I’m sure you can’t imagine that I’m condescending simply for stating what I believe – so you must be referring to something else in what I wrote.
If you have the time to respond, I’d be genuinely interested. I also stand by my original statement, that I wish you well on your chosen path. We may disagree about religion, but I hope we can be civil and mutually-respectful on the basis of our common humanity, if nothing else. It is that common humanity and shared experience (and not religion) that should be (in my opinion) the basis of what holds our society together, from our morality to our manners.
I apologize for my blunder, Timothy. At the moment, I’m writing something with a character in it named Thomas and I guess the two are just enough alike to cause me to have a brainfart. I’ve never been any good at multitasking.
“However, I am struck by your statement (in your reply to me) that my own original post was full of condescension. I certainly didn’t intend that, and I’m sorry if that is how you read it.”
It’s sometimes not intentional. The problem is that condescension is inherent in Christian rhetoric whenever it’s being directed at a nonbeliever. Along with being judgmental, Christianity is also very condescending, with all of its smarmy, false talk of love and acceptance. True love and acceptance are unconditional. Christian love and acceptance are not. It’s unavoidable.
“I’d be genuinely interested to know in what ways you felt my post to be condescending, as I often have opportunities to talk about my faith with people who do not share it,”
Trust me, Timothy, if you’re talking about your faith with people who do not share it, you are being condescending whether you intend it or not. The chances are overwhelmingly good that if the person you’re talking to doesn’t share your faith, he or she has no interest whatsoever in hearing about it. I know that you think you are sharing your faith and trying to set a good example. This is impossible. If you really want to impress someone with your faith, live it and don’t say a word about it. If and when other people find out that you are a Christian and you have been a good and decent person who hasn’t yammered on about the fact that you’re a Christian, I assure you they will be impressed. I know the bible instructs you to share your faith and spread it by converting others, but the bible also instructs you to kill adulterers and sabbath-breakers and you don’t do that. The best possible advice I could give you as a nonbeliever would be not to talk about your faith at all unless someone specifically asks you about it — and even then, be conservative about it. The most offensive thing about Christians is their apparent undying need to discuss their religious beliefs. The fact is, nobody cares. There’s a T-shirt floating around out there that says you should treat your religion like your penis — don’t take it out in public. Crude as it is, it’s a perfect metaphor and great advice.
“I appreciate that (as you say) you must have heard from hundreds of believers in the past, and heard hundreds of arguments before. Likewise, I have encountered hundreds of non-believers before, and heard all the atheist arguments many times over.”
Then why do you keep talking about your faith to atheists? Seems rather pointless, doesn’t it? I don’t go around talking about the fact that I’m an atheist with Christians. Ever. Not unless they first start throwing their religion at me. Which happens far too often because Christians are much more interested in talking about their beliefs rather than silently applying them to their lives and living them. This is almost always a mistake.
“I’m sure you can’t imagine that I’m condescending simply for stating what I believe”
Yes, you are. And given the fact that this is an atheist blog, sure you can’t imagine that I would be interested in hearing what you believe. As I said before, Christianity and its rhetoric are inherently condescending to those who do not believe in it. I guarantee you that most of the people to whom you’ve talked about your faith throughout your life feel exactly as I do, but they haven’t pointed it out to you. If Christians had any genuine self-awareness, they would look back on all the times they’ve openly discussed their faith with people who haven’t specifically asked about it and they would wither with embarrassment. But that kind of self-awareness does not seem to exist among the religious.
The reason the person you’re talking to is not a Christian is most likely that he or she has no INTEREST in being a Christian, or perhaps that person has a Christian background and has, with good reason, rejected it. It’s not like Christianity is a little known belief system. It’s everywhere. Trust me, it is, unfortunately, unavoidable. Those of us who have no interest in it are confronted with it on a daily basis, and I can assure you that it’s VERY tiresome. Jesus is not some obscure mystery god that no one has ever heard of before. Like Santa Claus, he’s a nonexistent celebrity. Everybody knows about him. If you think you are going to be the first person who has ever mentioned Jesus or Christianity to anyone — ANYONE! — you are WRONG. We know. We’ve heard about it. Those of us who aren’t interested are not going to change our minds. Enough, already. Keep it to yourself and show us that Christianity has actually BENEFITED you in some way by being a good and decent person who does not have to talk about his religion all the time — or any time. Do something original with your faith and LIVE it instead of discussing it.
“It is that common humanity and shared experience (and not religion) that should be (in my opinion) the basis of what holds our society together, from our morality to our manners.”
We are in agreement on that. Religion does nothing but divide. I’m just old enough to remember a time when the common wisdom was that one should always avoid talking about religion and politics. Now it seems that’s all anybody wants to talk about.
Thank you Ray – all very interesting, and I’m glad we found at least one point of agreement. [Actually, its clear to me from reading your posts that we have many other areas of agreement (for example, I've been an active opponent of the Ugandan anti-gay laws), but I don't want to be a "red rag to a bull", so I won't pursue that....].
“Then why do you keep talking about your faith to atheists? Seems rather pointless, doesn’t it?”
This is the only thing I feel I ought to respond to – as a simple clarification of fact. I don’t as a rule go around talking about my faith randomly with strangers. However, I have often been asked to explain my faith by people who are (or say they are) atheists. In my experience it is common, if one is known to be a person of faith, to be approached with a query along the lines of “I don’t believe anything like that – why do you believe it?” I have been asked questions similar to that many, many times. It is in response to such queries that I discuss my faith.
So with respect I must say that there are certainly atheists out there who DO (for whatever reason – and doubtless there are many motives) want to engage in dialogue with those who have faith. However, I quite accept that YOU don’t! I live thousands of miles away from you, so we’ll probably never meet, but IF by chance I should ever bump into you in a bar, I’d be happy to buy you a drink, and spend an hour NOT talking about religion – on condition that you didn’t talk about atheism (that’s just in the bar scenario, of course – I’m not questioning your right to discuss atheism on your own web blog about atheism!!!).
Thanks for your time this evening (although where you are it’s probably not evening yet…). It has been very interesting. Good luck with what you’re currently writing (Thomas et al).
Timothy
When someone asks “I don’t believe anything like that – why do you believe it?” they are not asking you to discuss your faith. They’re asking WHY you believe what you believe. That’s a very different question. They aren’t asking WHAT you believe. If they know you’re a Christian, they already know what you believe. They want to know why you believe it. I have, on occasion, asked Christians this same question — usually after I’ve answered their question, “Why are you an atheist?” But that one question never gets a straight answer from a Christian — not in my experience, anyway — and always requires more questions.
“I believe Jesus was the son of god and died for my sins because the bible says he did.”
“Why do you believe anything written in the bible?”
“Because it’s the word of god.”
“Why do you believe it’s the word of god?”
“Because it says it is.”
This can go on and on, but I usually don’t pursue it. Having been a Christian myself, I already have a good idea what the short answers are to my original question.
1.) They were born in a country in which Christianity was the dominant faith.
2.) One or both of their parents — or other related caretaker — were Christians and they were indoctrinated in the faith from the very earliest ages.
Two studies by Christian research organizations found that more than 85% of all Christians are indoctrinated into the faith as children and only a small percentage are converted as adults. They never give these answers, though, because they honestly believe there is a solid reason of their own why they believe what they believe … they just don’t seem to be able to put their finger on it in a conversation.
“So with respect I must say that there are certainly atheists out there who DO (for whatever reason – and doubtless there are many motives) want to engage in dialogue with those who have faith.”
First of all, I find it very hard to believe that atheists are bringing up the topic of religion with you. I’m an atheist and I know a lot of atheists and I don’t know a single one who’s eager to sit down, roll up his sleeves and get into a discussion about religion with a Christian. They tend to avoid it. That’s not to say, of course, that such atheists don’t exist, but they would certainly make me scratch my head. There are all kinds of atheists — believe me, some are every bit as annoying as religious zealots — so anything is possible. But with the religious people I’ve dealt with, I’ve found that their religion has distorted their view of everything. Having been on the other side of this fence, I know that Christians LOOK for opportunities to discuss their faith. But what THEY see as a perfect opportunity to talk about it is not likely to be seen the same way by the person on the receiving end. Unfortunately, most people have been taught that they cannot criticize anyone’s religious belief; we’re taught to think that faith is a virtue in itself. So most people are very polite when someone starts talking about their religious beliefs, even if it’s the last thing in the world they want to hear. When such a conversation is over, the Christian walks away with a satisfied smile thinking that it went very well and convinced that he’s been a good witness for Christ. Meanwhile, the other person is sighing with relief that it’s over and wishing he could have avoided it in the first place.
“I’d be happy to buy you a drink, and spend an hour NOT talking about religion – on condition that you didn’t talk about atheism”
I never ever volunteer the fact that I’m an atheist. I never have and never will. And I would be every bit as offended by any atheist who goes around spouting off about his atheism as I am by religious people who do the same. I write about atheism and religion frequently, but I do not discuss it in my personal life. Any discussion I get involved in regarding religion is always started by someone else, and I do my best to divert the conversation to other topics. I try to avoid it because it usually doesn’t turn out well. Although you might not be able to tell from reading this (my bluntness is often even MORE blunt when it is simple text), I’m a very polite person who would MUCH rather make others laugh than make them angry or offend them. I really do enjoy people and get along well with most. However, I just don’t have it in me to say things I don’t mean or support or condone, even with silence, things with which I don’t agree. I just can’t do it. So I try to avoid topics of conversation that could be troublesome. In my ideal world, the topic of religion would never ever ever come up.
I don’t discuss my atheism because it’s not open for debate. When somebody has proof of the existence of god, we’ll talk. Until then, it’s not a topic of conversation for me. I am not passionate about my atheism because it would be idiotic to be passionate about NOT believing in something. But if the topic of religion comes up, it is the antitheist in me that responds. I am opposed to religion across the board. Any religion, all religion. I think it’s the worst thing humankind has ever done to itself. If someone wants to talk to me about religion, that will come out. I have enormous respect for human beings, but I have no respect for the baseless and harmful beliefs and superstitions they hold and that they use to justify their prejudices, and I’m not shy about saying so. But I do try to avoid the topic if possible.
Having said all that, it’s apparent that you’re not in the United States, so I have to make something clear. My experience with Christianity has been limited to American Christians. I’ve come to learn that Christians here are VERY different than Christians in other parts of the world. For example, Timothy, you have been unfailingly pleasant and I’ve enjoyed my exchange with you. As far as Christianity goes, that’s very un-American of you (and I mean that as a compliment)! I tend to be direct and say what I mean, but I hope none of it has come across as angry or hostile (it sometimes does in text) because you’ve been very amiable.
When American Christians deal with nonbelievers, they tend to start out hostile and get worse from there. American Christianity is angry and bullying and it is currently engaged in an effort to take control of this country and turn it into a totalitarian theocracy. I’ve been told by friends in Canada and the UK and in European countries that I would be pleasantly surprised by the behavior of religious people abroad. And if this country gets any worse, I may find out first hand, because right now, the United States is circling the drain to the strains of the hymn “The Old Rugged Cross.” I feel the need to point this out because my limited experience, while it has been consistent, has been only with Christians in this country. You have not struck me as being anything like them, Timothy, and it’s very refreshing.
It’s approaching 6:00 here in California and we’ve had a lovely day. I’ve been writing all day and plan to take a break for a nice brisk walk along the river soon. I hope you have a good night, Timothy.
We understand them but they do not (or do not want) to understand us. Their sentimental concern about our salvation is often unbearable. Imagine what life could be far & away from them. They’d be living only in our memories, song, or poems; not in our neighborhoods. In our novels, they’d be summon with humor & melancholy but rarely with bitterness or grief. For this is the gift of maturity: to be able to forgive. To be able to accept & cherish your own childhood – the only one you have – though it has been colored by that. Have multiple identities, mysticism has nothing to do with organized religion. & if all this sound like a poem to you – then we are both free.